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 Concerning Church and State

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PostSubject: Concerning Church and State   Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:25 am

I wrote a note on Facebook and felt the need to share it here.


"A lot of talk has been going on around the Internet and in the halls of our government about the separation of church and state. This talk has undoubtedly been ignited by the recent tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School. All around the Internet you see pictures, quotes, interviews and opinion pieces seemingly insinuating that if our government would allow religion and God within our public school system, this kind of disgrace could be avoided. The facts are disturbingly different. This piece is not written in an attempt to further a cause. No, this piece is written to halt one. The cause of removing the separation of church and state, shamelessly launched off of the Sandy Hook tragedy by the political right, is a cause of nothing more than treason. No patriot in their right mind would allow such a cause to live on. Sadly, in our potentially grand and free country there exist a great many patriots who are not in their right minds. A great many patriots religiously blinded to the hopes, needs and dreams of others. A great many patriots too busy to notice anything outside of the reach of their own small circle. If you are still reading this, there is a good chance that you are one of these misguided, well-meaning patriots and I implore you to read on.

Our constitution, the very document our country was founded upon, clearly states that the separation of church and state is essential to the well-being of the commonwealth. Our founding fathers ardently agreed on this point, yet many of us cannot. Please understand that this separation protects everyone in this country from the oppression of the minority by the majority. Yes, as an open atheist, I am a part of a minority. In the United States, if you are a Christian, you are a part of a majority. This is why the separation of church and state holds such little meaning to Christians. Please take a moment to look ahead. Islam is expanding exponentially. Many other religions are growing much faster than Christianity, and Islam will probably overcome Christianity before many of our lives are over. In this Islam dominated world, if we do not have the protection of the separation of church and state, we all run the risk of being oppressed under a theocracy enforcing Sharia Law! Forced prayer to a God and prophet you disagree with. Forced pilgrimages to Mecca. Forced payment of the zakat. Forced fasting during the month of Ramadan. The rights of women that have been earned with blood, gone. You see, the separation of church and state does not only protect some, it protects us all.

Should prayer be allowed in schools? Yes. Should prayer be recognized and enforced by any school? No. Should everyone be allowed to worship who and what they choose? Yes. Should our government establishments partake in this same devotion? No. As a true patriot, I am in favor of keeping the separation of church and state. Without it, any of us could become victims of a terrible fate. I hope this note finds someone and makes them think. If you have read this whole note, I hope you are reflecting on the content of it, rather than on my personal beliefs. And if you hold the same hope as I do that all of us are patriots trying to make this country truly grand and free, I hope you share this note with others.

My heart goes out to the victims and families involved in the Sandy Hook tragedy.

Corey S."
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:05 am

I would be happy if religious people just stopped looking down on anyone who disagrees with them.

And just for the record, my stance on God's existence is that I don't give a damn either way.

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PerseusRad wrote:
halestride wrote:

PerseusRad wrote:
There are Fireworks outside, but I can't see them very well.

then go outside.

thats crazy talk
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:09 pm

I'll only be happy once they stop interfering in everyone's lives, our education system, and with the quality of our country. Right now, our country is on the brink of an oppressive theocracy, with only a few heroic figures (including President Obama) staying the tide of moral dictatorship.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:30 pm

No. Like keeping that stupid creationism bullshit away from students. But yes, the pledge of allegiance should not contain God.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:56 pm

I'd say creationism should be taught, but make it an elective course like the rest of the world's various mythologies. After all, that's what it is, Christian mythology.

Evolution, on the other hand, has been conclusively proven as fact, so it should be part of the primary, required curriculum.

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PerseusRad wrote:
halestride wrote:

PerseusRad wrote:
There are Fireworks outside, but I can't see them very well.

then go outside.

thats crazy talk


Last edited by Ghost Leader on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:58 pm

Well going over religions is school is fine and legal. Teaching them as truth is the illegal part. I think religion should be taught in schools as literature for sure. But once you start telling students that God is real and watching us all, that snakes talk, and that the earth is only 6,000 years old...That is completely hindering the education of our youth. And God being in the pledge of allegiance is government endorsement of religion (namely the Judeo-Christian religion) and is blatantly going against our constitution. And so many religious people go on and on about how they are the only ones to uphold the constitution. Whatever.

Ghost Leader wrote:
I'd say creationism should be taught, but make it an elective course like the rest of the world's various mythologies. After all, that's what it is, Christian mythology.

Same here. It needs to be under the mythological context though.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:36 pm

Spike991 wrote:
NiteKrawler wrote:
Well going over religions is school is fine and legal. Teaching them as truth is the illegal part. I think religion should be taught in schools as literature for sure. But once you start telling students that God is real and watching us all, that snakes talk, and that the earth is only 6,000 years old...That is completely hindering the education of our youth. And God being in the pledge of allegiance is government endorsement of religion (namely the Judeo-Christian religion) and is blatantly going against our constitution. And so many religious people go on and on about how they are the only ones to uphold the constitution. Whatever.

Then why is it still in the Pledge? Majority rule?

Because organized religion is so wealthy and powerful and atheists have yet to find a common voice.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Spike991 wrote:
Yeah, with Medusa and Perseus. Razz Oh wait, I forgot that Clash freak is here. JK.
Um... okay. If you're insinuating I don't know the real mythology behind Perseus and Medusa and think Clash told it right, you'd be very wrong.

NiteKrawler wrote:
Because organized religion is so wealthy and powerful and atheists have yet to find a common voice.
Well, to be fair, there are a lot of hardliner atheists out there that are just as pushy as their religious counterparts. I'd say there are people on both sides that need to learn to respect each others' differences.

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PerseusRad wrote:
halestride wrote:

PerseusRad wrote:
There are Fireworks outside, but I can't see them very well.

then go outside.

thats crazy talk
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:42 am

I live in a town that is very conservative. Very religious. My whole state is. Every single person I talk to is against gay marriage. They are against the mere right of an individual being allowed to marry whom they choose. When the Sandy Hook shooting happened, the next day at work two of my coworkers said that the shooter deserved to go to Hell. I asked them to think about it. Hell is eternal in their minds. Eternal torture. How could anyone wish eternal torture onto another individual, no matter their crime I asked them. They wouldn't budge and made me out to be crazy for thinking that eternal damnation was something too dreadful to wish upon anyone. Everyone I talk to here makes a mockery of the theory of evolution. "I didn't come from monkeys." they say. When I try to explain to them what evolution actually is, they ignore me and continue to believe this religiously indoctrinated notion that some monkey once gave birth to a human baby. No one here gives the big bang any thought. One of my friends is a churchgoer and has told me that he does not believe women should be allowed to preach. And he is a liberal. But his faith has blinded him to the rights of women to choose their own career, their own life. And the worst part of it is that they refuse to learn. I tell them to look into the facts, into the science of evolution, the big bang, to research what their faith believes and what atheists are actually about and they refuse. They blindly follow what they are taught in church and this faith has real negative consequences.

So I'd take any pushy hardliner atheist over even a mild person of faith any day.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:50 am

NiteKrawler wrote:
I live in a town that is very conservative. Very religious. My whole state is. Every single person I talk to is against gay marriage. They are against the mere right of an individual being allowed to marry whom they choose. When the Sandy Hook shooting happened, the next day at work two of my coworkers said that the shooter deserved to go to Hell. I asked them to think about it. Hell is eternal in their minds. Eternal torture. How could anyone wish eternal torture onto another individual, no matter their crime I asked them. They wouldn't budge and made me out to be crazy for thinking that eternal damnation was something too dreadful to wish upon anyone. Everyone I talk to here makes a mockery of the theory of evolution. "I didn't come from monkeys." they say. When I try to explain to them what evolution actually is, they ignore me and continue to believe this religiously indoctrinated notion that some monkey once gave birth to a human baby. No one here gives the big bang any thought. One of my friends is a churchgoer and has told me that he does not believe women should be allowed to preach. And he is a liberal. But his faith has blinded him to the rights of women to choose their own career, their own life. And the worst part of it is that they refuse to learn. I tell them to look into the facts, into the science of evolution, the big bang, to research what their faith believes and what atheists are actually about and they refuse. They blindly follow what they are taught in church and this faith has real negative consequences.
You have my sympathy. I know what it's like to live around people like that. They're steadfast in what they believe and won't acknowledge even the most solid logic if it contradicts what they perceive as fact.

But none of that really counters the fact that Atheism has those kind of people, too, just on the opposite side of the debate. It isn't just Christians that attempt to force their beliefs on people, Atheists do as well. Every religion has its extremists and Atheism is no different.

Quote :
So I'd take any pushy hardliner atheist over even a mild person of faith any day.
Okay, now put yourself in the shoes of a person of faith and ask yourself again whose company you would prefer, a pushy hardline believer or a mild Atheist?

It's a matter of what you yourself believe, and the obvious answer here is that you prefer the company of one that shares those beliefs.

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PerseusRad wrote:
halestride wrote:

PerseusRad wrote:
There are Fireworks outside, but I can't see them very well.

then go outside.

thats crazy talk
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:04 am

Just a thought, may not be relevant, but I find funny. Did you realize that every political thread that phoenix started, no one gave a fuck about, and just trolled, and now that he is gone, politics are openly discussed, without sour grapes? it's just funny. Poor phoenix.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:50 am

Ghost Leader wrote:
Every religion has its extremists and Atheism is no different.

You must realize the difference. A religious extremist flies planes into buildings, pickets the funerals of dead soldiers and homosexuals, changes legislature to infringe on the rights of others, etc. An atheist "extremist" ...writes a book? What is your perception of an atheist extremist? I don't really get the term to be honest because it implies one person who doesn't believe in God more than another person who doesn't believe in God. Oh and I'm not sure if you slipped up or not, but atheism is not a religion.

Ghost Leader wrote:
Quote :
So I'd take any pushy hardliner atheist over even a mild person of faith any day.
Okay, now put yourself in the shoes of a person of faith and ask yourself again whose company you would prefer, a pushy hardline believer or a mild Atheist?

It's a matter of what you yourself believe, and the obvious answer here is that you prefer the company of one that shares those beliefs.

That is true to a degree. But I feel many religious people, even mild ones, to be dangerous. All of them around me run 100% on emotion with no rational thought at all. Once you get a group of them together you get a crusade. Once you get a bunch of atheists together, on the other hand, you get the Royal Society.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:41 pm

00biohazard wrote:
Just a thought, may not be relevant, but I find funny. Did you realize that every political thread that phoenix started, no one gave a fuck about, and just trolled, and now that he is gone, politics are openly discussed, without sour grapes? it's just funny. Poor phoenix.
Well, I've known Spike and Nite and they've known me long enough for us to know that we all respect each others' differences and aren't going to resort to flaming or petty insults. I might be cynical, but I don't resort to name calling and stereotyping to prove a point unless someone purposely provokes me into doing so, which Nite clearly isn't doing.

Nite and I are clearly disagreeing on some things here and Spike and I disagree strongly on many points about RE4, but both know I bear neither any ill will over it.

NiteKrawler wrote:
You must realize the difference. A religious extremist flies planes into buildings, pickets the funerals of dead soldiers and homosexuals, changes legislature to infringe on the rights of others, etc. An atheist "extremist" ...writes a book? What is your perception of an atheist extremist? I don't really get the term to be honest because it implies one person who doesn't believe in God more than another person who doesn't believe in God. Oh and I'm not sure if you slipped up or not, but atheism is not a religion.
It can be defined as one in that it's the doctrine or belief that there is no God, versus Christianity, Islam, and Judaism being doctrines or beliefs that there is a God (I'm simplifying here, obviously, since the differences between those religions aren't relevant to the point). My "I don't gave a damn either way" stance can be defined in much the same way as the doctrine or belief that I don't care whether God exists or not. And my perception of an Atheist extremist is an Atheist who goes to unreasonable, oppressive, or violent lengths to force others into conforming to his/her belief system or as "punishment" for not doing so. Has it happened? I'm not aware of any instances, no, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Quote :
That is true to a degree. But I feel many religious people, even mild ones, to be dangerous. All of them around me run 100% on emotion with no rational thought at all. Once you get a group of them together you get a crusade. Once you get a bunch of atheists together, on the other hand, you get the Royal Society.
One of the definitions of "crusade" is "any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc." Atheism is an idea that can be defended or advanced, is it not? And some can be more aggressive than others in said process.

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PerseusRad wrote:
halestride wrote:

PerseusRad wrote:
There are Fireworks outside, but I can't see them very well.

then go outside.

thats crazy talk
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:27 pm

Ghost Leader wrote:
00biohazard wrote:
Just a thought, may not be relevant, but I find funny. Did you realize that every political thread that phoenix started, no one gave a fuck about, and just trolled, and now that he is gone, politics are openly discussed, without sour grapes? it's just funny. Poor phoenix.
Well, I've known Spike and Nite and they've known me long enough for us to know that we all respect each others' differences and aren't going to resort to flaming or petty insults.

All those great orgies helped our relationship as well.

Ghost Leader wrote:
It can be defined as one in that it's the doctrine or belief that there is no God, versus Christianity, Islam, and Judaism being doctrines or beliefs that there is a God (I'm simplifying here, obviously, since the differences between those religions aren't relevant to the point). My "I don't gave a damn either way" stance can be defined in much the same way as the doctrine or belief that I don't care whether God exists or not. And my perception of an Atheist extremist is an Atheist who goes to unreasonable, oppressive, or violent lengths to force others into conforming to his/her belief system or as "punishment" for not doing so. Has it happened? I'm not aware of any instances, no, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

What doctrine? Atheism is only "the disbelief in God/gods." Since you defined something, I shall as well:

Religion - 1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
2. Details of belief as taught or discussed.

It is obviously not the first. It is important to note the details of the second. Details of belief as taught or discussed. Atheism is not a belief. It is a rejection of one simple idea. Atheism cannot be taught. There is nothing to teach.

Ghost Leader wrote:

One of the definitions of "crusade" is "any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc." Atheism is an idea that can be defended or advanced, is it not? And some can be more aggressive than others in said process.

I should have included the word "violent". Never, in the history of mankind, has there been an atheist movement/crusade in which someone got hurt or died.

Ghost Leader wrote:
And my perception of an Atheist extremist is an Atheist who goes to unreasonable, oppressive, or violent lengths to force others into conforming to his/her belief system or as "punishment" for not doing so. Has it happened? I'm not aware of any instances, no, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Exactly. It just does not happen. Throughout history, those being punished for believing in any religion have been punished only by those from some other religion, or even that same religion! This is why, in my eyes, when you speak of the members of the atheist movement, and the members of most religious movements, you notice two very different mentalities. Religious people are very often of a dangerous mentality, and it truly scares me.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:44 pm

NiteKrawler wrote:
What doctrine? Atheism is only "the disbelief in God/gods." Since you defined something, I shall as well:

Religion - 1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
2. Details of belief as taught or discussed.

It is obviously not the first. It is important to note the details of the second. Details of belief as taught or discussed. Atheism is not a belief. It is a rejection of one simple idea. Atheism cannot be taught. There is nothing to teach.
A rejection of an idea is a belief in its own right.

Quote :
I should have included the word "violent". Never, in the history of mankind, has there been an atheist movement/crusade in which someone got hurt or died.

Exactly. It just does not happen. Throughout history, those being punished for believing in any religion have been punished only by those from some other religion, or even that same religion! This is why, in my eyes, when you speak of the members of the atheist movement, and the members of most religious movements, you notice two very different mentalities. Religious people are very often of a dangerous mentality, and it truly scares me.
It still isn't totally out of the realm of possibility for a militant form of Atheism to rise. A comet or meteor has never in the history of mankind swooped along out of oblivion and wiped our species out of existence. Does that mean it can never happen?

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PerseusRad wrote:
halestride wrote:

PerseusRad wrote:
There are Fireworks outside, but I can't see them very well.

then go outside.

thats crazy talk
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:17 pm

Yes, it could happen and may yet happen. But I think it really says something about atheists that it hasn't. And I consider myself a militant atheist. Not because I am violent, but because I am aggressively passionate. It bugs a lot of people, but that just comes with the territory. I honestly just wish more people would open a science book, or if Christians even just read their own holy book. Almost no Christian I have ever met has any clue what is in the bible. They just blindly follow what their parents and minister say. That's so sad. I'm an atheist and even I am reading the bible, for both the purpose of argumentation and for its literary importance.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:49 pm

It is hard. I love discussing topics like this but no one around here really likes to.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:25 pm

NiteKrawler wrote:
I live in a town that is very conservative. Very religious. My whole state is. Every single person I talk to is against gay marriage. They are against the mere right of an individual being allowed to marry whom they choose. When the Sandy Hook shooting happened, the next day at work two of my coworkers said that the shooter deserved to go to Hell. I asked them to think about it. Hell is eternal in their minds. Eternal torture. How could anyone wish eternal torture onto another individual, no matter their crime I asked them. They wouldn't budge and made me out to be crazy for thinking that eternal damnation was something too dreadful to wish upon anyone. Everyone I talk to here makes a mockery of the theory of evolution. "I didn't come from monkeys." they say. When I try to explain to them what evolution actually is, they ignore me and continue to believe this religiously indoctrinated notion that some monkey once gave birth to a human baby. No one here gives the big bang any thought. One of my friends is a churchgoer and has told me that he does not believe women should be allowed to preach. And he is a liberal. But his faith has blinded him to the rights of women to choose their own career, their own life. And the worst part of it is that they refuse to learn. I tell them to look into the facts, into the science of evolution, the big bang, to research what their faith believes and what atheists are actually about and they refuse. They blindly follow what they are taught in church and this faith has real negative consequences.

So I'd take any pushy hardliner atheist over even a mild person of faith any day.

Most filipnos are christian, about 80 per. But we are nowhere near like those people you mentioned. Yes we believe in god but we arent blind. I guess theres other types of christians. Actually most of the christians here isnt against gay marriage. Theyre even accepted here and most of them(gays) go to church too.. is that considered weird in your state? We just arent that judgemental. And we don't look down on those who arent christian. One thing i noticed though is that it seems filipinos have.bad blood with indians. They get all grumpy when theyre near(dont know why) we pretty much believe in what is in front of us. I just asked my friend if he believes in evolution and he said yes.

Im with you but it' ultimately up to the person if he will believe.. they still can believe in both religion and science.
also shouldnt the pygmy right whale have evolved? The whale that was recently found and thought to have been extinct.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:55 pm

Paperface* wrote:

also shouldnt the pygmy right whale have evolved?

What do you mean? And I only know of a couple liberal Christians around here and they are mother and son lol. So they believe in God but also in the rights of homosexuals. They seem iffy on evolution though and the son (my friend) is the one who didn't really think women should be allowed to preach.
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PostSubject: Re: Concerning Church and State   Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:17 pm

NiteKrawler wrote:
Paperface* wrote:

also shouldnt the pygmy right whale have evolved?

What do you mean? And I only know of a couple liberal Christians around here and they are mother and son lol. So they believe in God but also in the rights of homosexuals. They seem iffy on evolution though and the son (my friend) is the one who didn't really think women should be allowed to preach.

I just read that article somewhere. Its a whale that was thought to be extinct for thousands of.years ago but turned out that it wasnt cause they found a living fossil wandering around the shores just recently. If that were true. It shouldve evolved somehow right?
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